Curse

jackerduud · Nov 29, 2008, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Moddok Crevice. The Hunger. Dshot Hungers Bite and watch it stand around for 20 sec.

Dshot is epic.

upier · Nov 29, 2008, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I would say savage shot is superior if you only bring one and there are a few guys casting a small number of threat spells, like aegis or meteor shower.

If it is a happy spammer, as you say, daze win.

Yeah, I was more thinking of something like a Searing Flames boss. Disable SF - and the rest should be a walk in the park. No need to waste your elite on BHA just for that.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackerduud

Moddok Crevice. The Hunger. Dshot Hungers Bite and watch it stand around for 20 sec.

Dshot is epic.

You sure?
D-Shot works?
http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hunger%27s_Bite
Hunger's Bite:
Full: Steal 30 Health from target foe for each condition on that foe. Target foe randomly gains two of the following conditions for 15 seconds: Poisoned, Bleeding, Diseased, Deep Wound, Crippled or Dazed. This skill cannot be disabled.

Concise: Steal 30 Health for each condition on target foe. This foe randomly gains two of the following conditions (15 seconds): Poisoned, Bleeding, Diseased, Deep Wound, Crippled, Weakness, or Dazed. This skill cannot be disabled.

valence · Nov 29, 2008, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by grim lavamancer joe

um, so im guessing that every single person is ignoring the fact that a GOOD RANGER should be able to predict spells, especially with monsters casting on recharge.

because good rangers know how to predict when a monster is going to cast...

because its so massively powerful, and ask any serious player about which is harder to interupt; everyone of them will say players.

Anticipation/prediction is probably the most overused term for rangers that are ... shit at the game. Sure predicting spell casts are fine, but this is not the basis for your interrupts, reaction still is. Therefor being inable to interrupt on reaction deu to HM fastcast, the most important basis of your interrupts fade away, leaving daze as the only reliable source of interrupts.

Since you like to take pvp as an example, when the ping of a ranger drops he knows he wont do much with his interrupts, cause he cannot interrupt on reaction. The ranger with bad ping will have to rely on anticipation and will never do as good when having good ping. HM is kinda the same as an increase in ping (since all monsters cast double as fast) then you will be one bad ranger relying on prediction.

Age · Nov 30, 2008, 01:07 AM // 01:07

To put it simple D-Shot is little like Diversion.I just wished I could get my interrupts for 3/4 castings back.I miss some 1 sec. casting sometimes.I can get those with my Mesmer.

Stealth Bomberman · Nov 30, 2008, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

To put it simple D-Shot is little like Diversion.

[diversion] is a hex which can be removed, [distracting shot] is only affected by being blind (easily removed as well) or target blocking (not common in pve).

MegaVolti · Nov 30, 2008, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Bomberman

[diversion] is a hex which can be removed, [distracting shot] is only affected by being blind (easily removed as well) or target blocking (not common in pve).

Hex removal is also very uncommon in PvE and since there are usually many hexes flying around, the chance of Diversion being removed is very low.
Also, in PvE the enemies won't stop casting or cast a useless spell to get rid of Diversion.
Still it is rarely ever used in PvE. Maybe because blocking one skill from one enemy is just not relevant in PvE? That's the same reason D-Shot isn't all that great and Magebane Shot is not used in PvE

And D-Shot actually has to hit stuff. So in HM, you will almost never D-Shot a Word of Healing. But you can divert it

Orange Milk · Dec 01, 2008, 02:51 PM // 14:51

PvE is simple.

IF your one of those people that runs around with the same armor, same weapon set and same skills all the time.

OR

PvE is complicated if you bother to plan ahead and set yourself and team up in the optimal build, armor, and weapon setS.

Most folks run around with full survivors armor, 1 or 2 weapon sets and the same skill bar no matter what they do and 15^50's.

Not Me. I plan ahead, and take the most optimal build, armor and weapons I can to make the run easier/faster. There are places where Armor vs Elements or vs Physical is better. Infact in MOST cases +armor is greater than +HP. If your in an area with alot of degen conditions/hexes, well then take the +HP.

And as for the optimal build, in most cases it includes DShot, no matter what your doing there is typically some that the 20 sec shutdown of is a great benifit to yourself and party. If your simple and just play "Smash-n-Dash Damge and Red Bars go up healing" then be simple.

Also you keep saying "SY" all the time, I really don't see why you would not have room on a bar for both skills, infact if your not a Barrage or Volley guy I don't see why SY would be on your Ranger bar in the first place.

upier · Dec 01, 2008, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

PvE is simple.

IF your one of those people that runs around with the same armor, same weapon set and same skills all the time.

OR

PvE is complicated if you bother to plan ahead and set yourself and team up in the optimal build, armor, and weapon setS.

Most folks run around with full survivors armor, 1 or 2 weapon sets and the same skill bar no matter what they do and 15^50's.

Not Me. I plan ahead, and take the most optimal build, armor and weapons I can to make the run easier/faster. There are places where Armor vs Elements or vs Physical is better. Infact in MOST cases +armor is greater than +HP. If your in an area with alot of degen conditions/hexes, well then take the +HP.

And as for the optimal build, in most cases it includes DShot, no matter what your doing there is typically some that the 20 sec shutdown of is a great benifit to yourself and party. If your simple and just play "Smash-n-Dash Damge and Red Bars go up healing" then be simple.

So what you are saying is that when one is creating weapon sets and armours in the PvP character window - one is experiencing the complexity of PvE?
Foes stay as dumb when you have access to 4 weapon sets as they are when you have access to just one. So modifying YOUR side of the PvE equation doesn't make PvE complex. It just gives you something to play around with. Like trying to find a skirt for Barbie that would match her pink stilettos.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

Also you keep saying "SY" all the time, I really don't see why you would not have room on a bar for both skills, infact if your not a Barrage or Volley guy I don't see why SY would be on your Ranger bar in the first place.

Because in the current PvE, SY! is pretty much better then anything the ranger can dish out.
That is why you are seeing team builds that include SY! and no rangers. And they are better off then had they had rangers and no SY!

gw_poster · Dec 01, 2008, 05:12 PM // 17:12

d-shot is always on my bar for PvE, too. but so is [Pain Inverter]. For big bosses, or other high-damage baddies, I would rather throw a [Pain Inverter] on them than d-shot/interrupt them, cuz its more fun to watch them blow up. [No point in using BHA then PI, or PI then d-shot, cuz PI loses its effectiveness if the foe can't get a (damage) skill off.] i'll then concentrate d-shot'ing/savaging/dazing the enemy healer(s), by that time they are set anyway and BHA won't miss.

Orange Milk · Dec 01, 2008, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier
So what you are saying is that when one is creating weapon sets and armours in the PvP character window - one is experiencing the complexity of PvE?

Don't recall anywhere in my post where I mention PvP at all.

The fact that you just stated that you use one weapon set when you have the option for 4 proves that you are still simple. I asked that you come back and speak to me when your were not so simple. You missed the point of my post anyway.

Bobby2 · Dec 01, 2008, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

And as for the optimal build, in most cases it includes DShot, no matter what your doing there is typically some that the 20 sec shutdown of is a great benifit to yourself and party.

Considering most baddies have a life span of <5sec, I'd have to disagree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

If your simple and just play "Smash-n-Dash Damge and Red Bars go up healing" then be simple.

Physicals are made of win. SY! renders most prot a joke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

Also you keep saying "SY" all the time, I really don't see why you would not have room on a bar for both skills, infact if your not a Barrage or Volley guy I don't see why SY would be on your Ranger bar in the first place.

Any Ranger with [lightning reflexes][dwarven stability] and one of the faster bow types has a good shot at keeping up SY!, of course [barrage] does it better but sometimes you have to adapt amirite?

upier · Dec 01, 2008, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

Don't recall anywhere in my post where I mention PvP at all.

By your definition - you make PvE complex by choosing the right weapon set and the right armour for any given situation. We can easily disregard the playing VS foes BECAUSE based on your definition that does NOT make PvE complex, otherwise running around in the same armour COULD also lead to complex PvE!
So, if pretty bows and nicely fitting outfits make out the complexity of PvE - does that mean that people creating pretty bows and nicely fitting outfits in the PvP creation screen experience the complexity of PvE?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

The fact that you just stated that you use one weapon set when you have the option for 4 proves that you are still simple. I asked that you come back and speak to me when your were not so simple. You missed the point of my post anyway.

And you obviously failed to comprehend what the thread is about.
The reality of PvE is that SIMPLE things work way better then they should. And making things more complex can actually lead to being less effective! As is the case with Diversion. Or - and this was argued - could be the case with D-Shot because you are giving up damage/more frequent use of the skill for an effect that isn't needed in general PvE.

Oh and I didn't state I am using just ONE set. I said that foes stay equally dumb whether you are using ONE or FOUR sets.

The Meth · Dec 01, 2008, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Name some skills that you can reliably interrupt in PvE HM and that aren't better countered with other skills that are much easier to use. Using D-shot for defense is useless, SY or Enfeebling blood are 25x and 100x better respectively. On offense, the only defense skill worth mentioning that you could reliably interrupt is Aegis, and thats used in, what, 3 areas in all PvE? Only groups I know using it are the charr. In every other instance damage is king in PvE, and distracting shot does not give you more damage.

Orange Milk · Dec 01, 2008, 09:23 PM // 21:23

I never said "pretty and proper fitting" I said optimal i.e when farming Ice Imps I wear frost bound armor and not survivors, because its optimal. People who are simple and basic just werar the same armor no matter where they go and no matter what they face.

I don't know why you keep talking about PvP, I'm not talking about PvP.

As I said in my first post here, basically your a troll that created this thread to simply raise his post count. So....

To put it simply, DShot is basically one of the greatest skills in the game, those who deny that fact are, well, basically simple.

Amy Awien · Dec 01, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

.. Or - and this was argued - could be the case with D-Shot because you are giving up damage/more frequent use of the skill for an effect that isn't needed in general PvE.

Like what? What build would you be realistically using that brings so many attack skills that there isn't room for D-Shot and Savage Shot?
Indeed, attack spamming and interrupting don't mix, but you 'switch' depending on the need, if you need to catch a skill you just have to spend some time not attacking, be it with Savage or D-Shot.

upier · Dec 02, 2008, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

I never said "pretty and proper fitting" I said optimal i.e when farming Ice Imps I wear frost bound armor and not survivors, because its optimal. People who are simple and basic just wear the same armor no matter where they go and no matter what they face.

Because optimal doesn't always equal not simple.
Is damage simple?
Yeah, it is.
Are interrupts simple?
Well, they are probably more advanced then damage.
But Discord-way wins PvE, where as D-Shot-way doesn't (yes, I COMPLETELY made up D-Shot-way to imply a team group heavy on advanced skills). Well, tbh, D-Shot-way would still win PvE because of how simple PvE is - but it wouldn't be near as fast as just simple damage is.
It would be less optimal then Discord-way.

"Pretty and proper fitting" referred to the fact, that you consider PvE to be complex because of activities that aren't needed. (I can't believe I am going to say this but) Running around in shoes that match your pants is optimal - but any shoes that keep you warm will do the basic job also. And it's the same thing here. People also win by employing basic strategies. Now, including advanced strategies that increase your efficiency is good. It makes you a better player (despite that not being needed!). The problem appears when advanced strategies lead to a trade-off. Where you are including advanced strategies at the expense of the simplicity that wins PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

I don't know why you keep talking about PvP, I'm not talking about PvP.

I just pointed out that the activities that you consider to make PvE complex ARE present in the basic PvP activities. If those activities would make PvE complex - then creating a PvP character exceeds PvE's complexity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

As I said in my first post here, basically your a troll that created this thread to simply raise his post count. So....

To put it simply, DShot is basically one of the greatest skills in the game, those who deny that fact are, well, basically simple.

Like I stated before, this isn't a discussion about the concept of D-Shot, this is a discussion about D-Shot's practical use in PvE.
And because of that I CAN NOT agree with the idea that D-Shot is one of the greatest skills in PvE.
D-Shot is:
1. an active interrupt, in a game where active interrupts are losing their point.
2. a skill that does limited damage, in a game where damage is king.
3. not spamable, in a game where being able to spam wins.
And a skill that differs in so many ways from being in tune with PvE can only be in the greatest skills bunch if that bunch is HUGE!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Like what? What build would you be realistically using that brings so many attack skills that there isn't room for D-Shot and Savage Shot?

You start by including 3 PvE only skills. Just because they are so obscenely overpowered.
Add an elite. Unless you are using an elite prep - you add a prep also. That's (4)5/8 slots taken.
If you now add D-Shot AND S-Shot - you are up to 6 or 7 skills used.
And, unless your elite is an attack skill, all that is before you start adding damage attack skills.
Considering you have 8 slots available - you probably might want to cut back on some options. Since damage wins PvE and PvE skills are beyond overpowered - where would you start?

EDIT:
Unless of course you are running Barrage. But Barrage is a bit of a class of it's own, because you have a spammable attack that does not allow for preps. Which isn't really the reality of other ranger builds - but is a good argument given the reality of PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Indeed, attack spamming and interrupting don't mix, but you 'switch' depending on the need, if you need to catch a skill you just have to spend some time not attacking, be it with Savage or D-Shot.

And that trade-off better be worth it.
And as seen by looking at many PvE group builds that do not include interrupts - it ends up not being worth it most of the time.

Age · Dec 02, 2008, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

PvE is simple.

IF your one of those people that runs around with the same armor, same weapon set and same skills all the time.

OR

PvE is complicated if you bother to plan ahead and set yourself and team up in the optimal build, armor, and weapon setS.

Most folks run around with full survivors armor, 1 or 2 weapon sets and the same skill bar no matter what they do and 15^50's.

Not Me. I plan ahead, and take the most optimal build, armor and weapons I can to make the run easier/faster. There are places where Armor vs Elements or vs Physical is better. Infact in MOST cases +armor is greater than +HP. If your in an area with alot of degen conditions/hexes, well then take the +HP.

And as for the optimal build, in most cases it includes DShot, no matter what your doing there is typically some that the 20 sec shutdown of is a great benifit to yourself and party. If your simple and just play "Smash-n-Dash Damge and Red Bars go up healing" then be simple.

Also you keep saying "SY" all the time, I really don't see why you would not have room on a bar for both skills, infact if your not a Barrage or Volley guy I don't see why SY would be on your Ranger bar in the first place.

You don't need maxed out armour for pve as I used Amnoon Osais armour throughtout the whole 3 campaigns with no 15^50 bows.I much prefer other elites to then Barrage.I will agree that you don't need SY on your bar especially if you don't have enough faction to get the skill.

Amy Awien · Dec 02, 2008, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And that trade-off better be worth it.
And as seen by looking at many PvE group builds that do not include interrupts - it ends up not being worth it most of the time.

It has been pointed out that one can 'win at PvE' with many different builds, including empty bars and even if it is at a 60DP. But personally I prefer a smooth mission with fast and clean fights over one that is characterized by chaos and wipes.

upier · Dec 02, 2008, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

It has been pointed out that one can 'win at PvE' with many different builds, including empty bars and even if it is at a 60DP. But personally I prefer a smooth mission with fast and clean fights over one that is characterized by chaos and wipes.

(Oh, I wasn't referring to bad builds.
I had things like Imbagons, D-Slashers, Earthshakers (and team build build variations) in mind. Which can include action control - but rather the active form (where the player decides when the foes will be or not be doing an action - KD for instance) then the reactive kind present in interrupts (where the foe decides when they will perform an action and it's then up to the player to decide if they will allow for such action to be executed - if they (can) catch it).)

If you are waiting to interrupt - you aren't spamming attacks. Which means you are wasting time that could be spent on spamming and killing. And that's the trade-off that isn't worth it most of the time.

The Meth · Dec 02, 2008, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

I never said "pretty and proper fitting" I said optimal i.e when farming Ice Imps I wear frost bound armor and not survivors, because its optimal. People who are simple and basic just werar the same armor no matter where they go and no matter what they face.

I heard the optimal way to play PvE is to kill the enemies. Distracting does not kill enemies.

Changing out your armor for ice imps is retarded. Waste of inventory space and/or money for something you shouldn't need unless you suck at the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Like what? What build would you be realistically using that brings so many attack skills that there isn't room for D-Shot and Savage Shot?

Well, 3 PvE skills straight off. There are enough you can find a place in any build for them easily. Pop in 3 damage skills (high single target damage, an AoE damage, a general use spam one), maybe even a 4th if energy gives room. That's already got you to 6-7/8 skills. Now you will probably want some kind of utility like mending touch, BHA for certain areas, maybe throw dirt. This isn't even counting a res that some people always have to have with them, though I don't. You can see how we don't have room for 2 skills that interrupt when taking 5 seconds to kill an enemy is the permanent interrupt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Name some skills that you can reliably interrupt in PvE HM and that aren't better countered with other skills that are much easier to use.

Until you can find an answer to this Distracting Shot is at best sub-optimal in regular HM play.